81 Boundaries: How to respond with guest Kami Orange

The month of February we are focusing on boundaries. I've brought on boundary expert and coach Kami Orange to share her knowledge with us.  I found Kami through a friend who suggested I check her out on TikTok and when I did I loved her. 

Kami Orange (she/her) is a Boundary Coach helping people “say the thing” in a kind direct way. She's a fat, queer, autistic, white cis woman from Utah, United States with over 17 years of 1-to-1 client experience, 294k followers on TikTok, and a boundary book coming out in November 2023! 

You can find Kami at:

https://kamiorange.com/

TikTok @kami_orange

Instagram @kamiorange

I did the interview with Kami a bit differently because I wanted to make sure these episodes were easy to consume. So rather than throwing the entire interview at you and overwhelming you with boundary talk, I've separated it into three episodes.

In the first episode Kami and I talk about her journey to body acceptance and viewing her body as art.

The second episode focuses on the nuts and bolts of boundaries. What they are, why they are good. AND You aren't a jerk if you set a boundary.

The third episode is super fun, I polled the community and Kami answers boundary concerns from listeners. She first shares how she would respond and then how someone new to boundaries might respond. 

Transcript

Sabrina Rogers  0:00  
Hey, it's the emotional eating therapists show. And this is the final part of our three part series with boundary expert Kami Orange. In this section, we are going to give Kami some very specific boundary situations and she's going to share with us how she would respond as the guru, and then how the rest of us who might not be so great with boundaries can handle these situations. 

Welcome to the emotional eating therapist Show. I'm your host, Sabrina Rogers, licensed mental health counselor, intuitive eating and body image expert, and recovering perfectionist. After healing my own disordered eating and body image issues. I'm helping women let go of the guilt and shame around eating, feel at peace around food and befriend the image they see in the mirror. In this podcast, we chat about all things food, body and mental health. So that you can stop dieting, let go of perfectionism. And finally, feel confident in all areas of your life. If you want to connect with me on social media, I'm on Instagram, Facebook and tick tock at Sabrina Rogers lmhc. And if you enjoy listening to this podcast, please leave a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening. This helps other women find and learn about the podcast. So they too can change their relationship with food and body. Let's get ready to stay off the diet roller coaster and live healthily ever after. 

Well, now that we know we can be kind and set boundaries, and that we're kind of jerky. If we don't, let's let's get to like the fun part of this. But I was so excited when you said hey, let's do this thing. I'm gonna give you some scenarios that came from my community. And you tell us how you would respond as the boundary guru. And then give us some ideas on how the rest of us who aren't quite so good with boundaries yet could respond. Because we're, we're all learning. Okay, so this one, people interrogate me, why am a vegetarian? Why am vegan or that specific, but you could fill in any way of eating in that?

Kami  2:09  
Yeah. So at this point in my life, well, I wouldn't say as you know, county orange boundary coach is, oh, that's not something I like to talk about. Like, like, I just, I don't talk about things I don't wanna talk about. And that's not something I want to talk about. And what I would suggest clients say, or, you know, students, you know, people listening to this is, oh, it works for me. You know, like, Oh, I'm, because I love it, like, it works for me. And I say, keep pushing, then you say, Oh, I don't talk about that at all. And then you fill in the blank, whatever setting you're in. I'm not talking about that at work. I'm talking about that at parties. I don't talk about that at while I'm eating. I don't talk about that at family gatherings. And so it's softer than what I would just say, I'm like, Oh, I don't talk about that. Or I don't. Because what I'm saying without saying is I don't wanna talk about that with you. So that comes across really direct. But to say, Oh, I don't talk about that at parties, or I don't I don't I don't talk about that while I'm eating. I don't talk about that at work. And people like, why not? Like, the context here is they've asked three times they said, Why are you going vegan? You said oh, it works for me. Then they pushed and said, But why though? You're like, oh, I don't talk about that, you know, work lunches. And they're like, but why they are being rude. At this point, like let let's just be really clear here. They pushed three times their curiosity does not entitle them to your personal information, what you eat is none of their business. And they are being rude. So at that point, you can say, I don't want to talk about it. So multiple layers,

Sabrina Rogers  3:55  
is it okay to call them out on that rudeness of like? I've said I don't talk about this and you continuing to push it is very rude.

Kami  4:06  
I would probably phrase it. I've told you three times I don't want to talk about it. And you still keep asking what is going on? Like why is why is this so important to you? That's good. Flip it back on them

Sabrina Rogers  4:25  
awesome. This one is another big one that comes up especially as we're working on weight neutrality and feeling body image when the medical staff insists they need my weight at all of my doctor's appointments. I've been told her like nurse triage whatever, I can't go to the next screen without entering this info.

Kami  4:52  
I so I would say is I would just give them like the last time I weighed myself I was 265 like I And you know that that is true. But I also have a lot of, like, I don't really care what my numbers are at this point. And so for me, that's an okay thing to say. Things that you could say, if you, you know, as a listener or client would be, you could tell them the number from your last weigh in, you could say, I don't, you could be weighed without looking at the scale, so they know what the number is. And then they can put in put that information. You're like, I am okay. If you know, you weigh me and just don't tell me what it is. They, the framing here the context is it's uncomfortable, and it's not the nurses fault. Or it's not the the medical person's fault. It's whoever on like an insurance level decided that, at least in the American medical system, it's on that level, they decided, hey, this is mandatory information. And so if that's something that really bothers you, I highly recommend doing actions outside of your medical appointments, to, you know, dismantle systemic anti fatness, and you know, whether that's voting or donating or posting about it or raising awareness, because it will help you feel more empowered. So when you are in those situations, you aren't, you don't feel stuck. Because it's not the issue is not the nurse, the issue is not the you know, physician's assistant who's just trying to do their job that day. The issue is the system, the system. And if you feel powerless in those moments, like fight the system, but fighting the nurse in that moment, the nurses not the system. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Sabrina Rogers  6:51  
Yeah. And I think that's a very good distinction, in that it's, you know, a lot of these people are, quote, just doing their job. And the way the medical system is training people is that we need a weight because it's a vital statistic, when I don't really think that it is.

Kami  7:11  
Well, and it's an important number if you are getting, like, what is that called? Anesthesia. And there's a very short list of medications that are by weight. For adults very short list. Could be much it matters if your child Yeah, like children's weighed heavily impacts dosage, but adult weight very rarely does. And so like, there are a few scenarios, but in those scenarios, guess what, they weigh you again? Like they are they take their best guess? Or what do I mean? Like it will come up? So mostly, we think that weight in the medical system is a vital statistic because of the BMI which is bullshit. So, yes.

Sabrina Rogers  7:54  
And a topic for a different day. So what if someone comments on someone else's body in front of me? This person has distinct memories of granny making comments to my cousin to her cousin or about her cousin's body? Yeah.

Kami  8:15  
So in that scenario, what I would say is I would probably depending on the family dynamics, dislike change the subject or interject or distract the grandmother. And this is the same advice I would give to a client is like, later, pull the cousin aside and say, hey, when that happens again, do you want me to speak up? Do you want me to say something? Because some people really do. And that would feel really supportive, and other people are like, I'm just trying to survive this uncomfortable moment. And I don't want more attention drawn to it. And I've seen it go both ways. I've done that. I've pulled people aside family aside to be like, hey, this person is making fun of you. Like, how, how do you want me like, How can I support you in this? And they're like, just knowing that it bothers you, too, is supportive enough? Please don't say anything in that moment. Or like, yeah, that would be helpful if you distract them or speak up or say, Hey, knock it off. Let's not talk about people's weights, like, oh, you know, weight loss is weight is boring. Let's talk about whatever topic and that's kind of my tactic for any scenario. And most of them, especially with family family dynamics to be like, Okay, how do you want to be supported in this because the person that matters most the person whose feelings matter most is a person who is being bullied? If that person is not there, and Granny is just commenting on cousin's weight and cousin is not they're not at the party, not in the room. I would directly say, hey, let's not talk about cousin that way. Like that's inappropriate, or that is really uncomfortable. Like, I think it hasn't. It's lovely. Let's talk about something else. Because they're not there to ask. So I would be very direct if they weren't present. But if they are present, that I want to center them and their needs, and so try to distract, and then clarify later and be like, Hey, that was not okay that that happened. What can I do to support you the next time that happens?

Sabrina Rogers  10:21  
I really love it, how you bring it to the other person that's been included in this because, like we've said, you before, the person with the body is the boss. And if you're talking about somebody else, it's very different than if you were being talked about. And you could then put your own boundary up. Yeah. This one is a really good one, too. In my professional life, I have very clear and healthy boundaries. Outside of work, I believe I'm an asshole if I say no to those I love and I find myself often rescuing others. So

Kami  11:02  
for me, personally, I'm diving into like, if that was my client, they were like, Hey, this is my scenario. We would kind of pull apart the strands of like, what is the benefit to you of rescuing others, like what is the emotional need that's being met when you rescue others, like when you get to see yourself as the hero, the Savior, the you know, the the person with all the ability to rescue the giver, you get to feel good about yourself. Like, let's let's unpack that list. Notice that and figure out other ways that that unmet emotional need can be fulfilled, that doesn't involve rescuing others. So that's how I would handle that with like a client. As far as in this setting, you know, just like overall, boundaries are kind. And somewhere, that person learned that saying no is mean. And I invite them to investigate what part of their history, family childhood whatever, like somebody would say no to them, and it felt mean. And like, they don't want to be that person. And there are some work there for them to do. Because what they believe is not true. And setting saying no, is vital for relationships. I have strong feelings about that. Because part of the reason I got divorced, is he always said yes to everything, even when I was like, hey, Option A option B, what do you want? He's like, whatever you want to choose, I was like, Well, what would you choose if you were alone? Like if I wasn't involved, and he's like, oh, probably option B. And so we would go with B. And then like, flashboard years later, he's like, I deeply resent that we did not choose a and I cannot believe you did that. And I was like, hold up. I asked you, and you never said no. Like, and then he had all this resentment. So I for me, it's a little of a sensitive thing when I think people are just saying yes to me, because that's what they think I want to hear. I really don't like that. Those are not trustworthy people. And I avoid them. Actively consciously avoid them. Because saying yes to people all the time is deeply uncomfortable. Because that's not that's not kind. That's not honest. That's not true. So I have a strong view the other way because of my own trauma. So hopefully whoever asked that question, if you're listening to this, like, you know, there's other ways to see this situation. You're trying to never say no, because you want to be kind I'm saying if you never say no, I think you're creepy. And I would avoid you. Not that you're actually a creep. But like to me it makes me uncomfortable.

Sabrina Rogers  13:43  
I have a boss who's publicly disrespectful, dismissive and berating. Given the imbalance of power, how do I set healthy boundaries during the parading to stand up to this boss?

Kami  13:54  
So what I would say as the boundary coach to that boss is, I probably let them finish their tirade in that moment, and then say, as calmly as possible. I am not okay, with you raising your voice at me, especially in a workplace setting. And I'm not going to continue this conversation right now. Also, I recognize in work dynamics, you have to be willing to, like how far are you willing to go, you know, what are the ramifications if you get fired? And so it's there's a lot of privilege, flexing as far as like, what are the boundaries you can set at work? Because if your boss is a tyrant, and then you set boundaries, and you get fired, that's a problem. For some people, other people are like, Oh, the fastest, easiest option is to get a new job and get out of there. And so recognizing that your boss is awful and is probably not going to change. And that's not your fault. Like don't take individual responsibility. Please like do your best to not internalize that your boss is awful. But it really the boundaries you can set really depend on the privileges that you have access to, as far as it is that bad things you get fired like I would be okay with getting fired for that. I don't have a problem with that, but like some people would not be. And it just really depends on their circumstances.

Sabrina Rogers  15:28  
Other work related kind of thing but applicable as a contract worker juggling many things including an easily distractible mine. How do I set boundaries with a contract employer who pings you periodically, every day, the pings are questions and are independently long enough to justify billing. And staying on the good side of the employer helps ensure continued assignments. However, these pings messages disrupt focus on paying on other pain work or other tasks I'm doing.

Kami  15:59  
So in that scenario, what I would do is I would batch them, and I would just say, hey, like I will respond to you, I'll just put it in my calendar, like I take these 10 minutes, you know, from 10am, to 10:10am, and from 2pm to 2:10pm. And you're like, hey, I'll respond to you at this time. And this time, heads up moving forward, if you send me questions in between, you're welcome to do that. And I'll only respond to them, then I would know like quiet the notification. So they're not making a noise and being distracting. And then check at those times. And then I would bill for it. Yes, I would batch that. And then bill for it 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the evening. And then if it takes longer, like it can take longer, but it's like you deserve to get paid for your work. And those that two minutes here, two minutes here two minutes, or that does add up. And that way you can say it's a way of proving that you are consistent and very professional, that if you say oh, I'll get back to you at 10 and a two every day. And you do like, that's amazing. Like that's, that's very professional. So yeah, I put it in the calendar on batch it. 

Sabrina Rogers  17:12  
And I would imagine that over time doing that they, the contract employer is going to learn not to keep sending messages randomly throughout the day, they're going to send these messages or at least know, okay, she's going to respond. During this time,

Kami  17:28  
I would tell them in advance, like, hey, my schedule has changed moving forward. So I will be responding at this time and this time. So if you send me, you are welcome to send me messages at any time. You know, whatever is convenient for you. This is when I will be getting back to you. And you know, if twice a day isn't often enough, you could do three times a day, but like, batch them and build for them.

Sabrina Rogers  17:51  
Batch and Bill. Yes. And then the last one that I threw at you kind of last minute, how do I draw boundaries around not accept accepting stuff from insistent people such as people offering food repeatedly when you're at some sort of function? Gifts of kitchen, household items, clothes, those types of things?

Kami  18:15  
And I I personally just say no, thank you. Like, seriously, like, oh, no, thank you. No, like, Oh, I really want to give you this or Oh, I'm gonna drop it off. And like know that. No, thank you. And it's similar to the conversation we had earlier of like, is the vegan thing where they like, if they push three times they are being rude? Like if I'm like, oh, no, thank you. That's not something I need right now. That's, you know, thank you so much for thinking of me, I am full up on, you know, baked goods, like, thank you so much. That is not something I can use. You know, like, if they keep pushing, they're being rude. And if they just dropped that off anyway, feel free to trash it or donate it like no guilt. They dropped it off. They're being weirdo. But yeah, I just say no, thank you.

Sabrina Rogers  19:09  
Is there anything else related to boundaries that you want to make sure the listeners know, before we sign off for the day?

Kami  19:19  
I invite people to develop their own philosophy of boundaries. You know, mine is boundaries are kind boundaries are a communicated expression of what's okay and what's not okay. And if you're like, oh, I want to be good at boundaries, or I'm learning boundaries. I highly recommend taking, you know, a few minutes it'd be like, Oh, how do I want to define boundaries? What do I believe about boundaries? Or what do I want to believe about boundaries that I don't currently believe? It's similar to the conversation we had about like bodies, people like Oh, I hate my body. I hate my body. Okay, what do you want to believe? And for me, it was I want to love my body so much If it never changes, I'm okay. So same thing where you're like, Oh, I'm just so bad at boundaries. Okay? What do you want to be? I want to believe the boundaries are kind, you know, and kind of, you know, clear as times boundaries are kind of, you know, boundaries are necessary or whatever it is like, pick what you want to believe and focus on that, as opposed to saying, like, Oh, I just suck at boundaries. That doesn't help you. I invite you to develop your own philosophy of what boundaries are and why they matter to you, because it's incredibly empowering. Because what happens I will just warn you, if you start setting boundaries, you will start getting messages from people who are like, Hey, you're really good at boundaries, could you help me with this? And you become this person?

Sabrina Rogers  20:50  
A career out of it.

Kami  20:52  
If you want it, you can make a career out of it. The world needs lots of boundary experts. So please, please join me as boundary professional, the field is open.

Sabrina Rogers  21:02  
Kami, it has been so lovely having you on. If people want to find you consume more of your content, get in touch with you. How do they do that?

Kami  21:12  
 You can find me at Kamiorange.com Kami, K - A - M - I Orange like the color or I am on Tik Tok Kami underscore orange. Also Instagram. So yeah, come find me on social media, check out my website. I am so excited to connect with people and you know, I get emails and testimonials of people saying office really, you know, went home for the holidays and for the first time ever I set a boundary with my father in law when he commented on my daughter's weight and I was like yes, yes. This is why I do what I do.

Sabrina Rogers  21:47  
Yes, because you can do it in a kind ways.

Kami  21:50  
Yep. It is possible. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been truly delightful.